How Real Brands Build Trust and Consistency (Most Companies Miss This Entirely)

Kayvon Kay0:00Most businesses think branding is what they say about themselves. They're completely wrong. Branding isn't about your message. It's about what people think when they hear your name. It's the long term position, the consistency, the trust. And here's the thing most founders miss. Branding and marketing are not the same. They're two completely different systems. Today, we break down the three part architecture that separates brands people love from brands people ignore. Strategy, identity, execution. And the one mistake that's probably killing your brand right now. This is Howard Lim. He's rebranded companies that sold for $750,000,000. He's IPO'd brands, and he's here to show you exactly where most businesses get it wrong. This is the vault unlocked. Let's unlock it. Today is all about the difference. Have sales,

Kayvon Kay1:03we have marketing, and then we have branding. And today, we are going to break down what we think branding is, what traditional branding really is, and what people think branding is today and how they see it. And today we have a special guest. I'm going to call him the branding expert, the master of all branding. Here we have him. Howard, how are you? Good. Good. Thank you. How are you doing? I'm doing great. Thanks so much for being here. I'm just gonna start us off because I think it's it's a big question that that I actually ask, and and I know that you have a unique way of answering it. So I wanna ask a simple question. What is branding?

Howard Lim1:44Well, branding's branding's a very deep and broad subject, and it's the most you can say it's the most complex business language that we have in the arena of business. And there's actually three parts to branding, but, ultimately, branding is about it's not about what you say. It's about how everyone receives you as a brand. In other words, what matters most is what people think about you, what they're saying. So people have a kind of like a one way street. They say, oh, we're building a brand, know, such and such, and they don't quite understand. It's not really what they're saying, although that influences the outcome, but it's about really what people think about your brand.

Kayvon Kay2:27That's interesting. Because right there, I mean, boom. Let's just kick it off. Ding ding ding. I love it. I what I just heard you say there is one of the cores of branding where it almost is like where most people probably get it wrong is you think we think branding is about what we want to say to the market or what we're trying to say to the market. But true branding and understanding where branding actually what it really means isn't what I'm saying to the market. It's what the market's perceiving what I'm saying.

Howard Lim2:56Exactly. And then and so with companies, what what's most ideal if they understand how to position their product and service information. And so, therefore, the expectations is matched to the experience of that buyer, that client, or the customer or consumer. So, therefore, there's an actual, you could say, alignment between what they're saying, what's been received, and how that experience is actually matched to expectation, which sounds simple, but most companies every company I've ever met, quite honestly, has it where there is not an equilibrium.

Kayvon Kay3:36Okay. So let's talk about this. How how did you come up? I mean, a little bit about your past now about how you've come up with this. Because obviously, you've you've seen know you've worked with some big companies and you've you've created this entire your business is around the idea of, like, true branding. Where did you come up? How did how did you learn all about this? What's the history here?

Howard Lim3:59Well, I was pretty fortunate because I was in school for eight years studying different, you could say, different subjects, but overall came out with a degree in applied art and science. But the point being is this, I started off by looking at design and advertising. And and the funny thing is a big part of branding is strong designing because it's all about how to engage people in their senses, especially out of our five senses, we use our eyes 90% of the time to perceive and evaluate things. So graphic design is what I majored in applied art and design, but I also took on some other courses like, you know, computer science, for example. The point being that it all came into the work into my company. So branding is a twofold where it used to be divided when it came to firms. You had graphic design firms, and then you had advertising firms like BBDO, Shia Day, so forth and so on. They're all about positioning. Advertising's all about positioning. So when I was in school, I was studying both, and I said, oh, there's something to this. And so I started building brands literally coming out of college, but I used to call it image marketing because branding wasn't even a category just yet. So I knew we're doing more than just design, and I know that we're doing more than just advertising that we're actually combining into. And that's really where, hence, branding came from is those two two core principles.

Kayvon Kay5:33From so branding came from the idea of advertising and advertising, you said, was positioning, and brand and and then there was design of that positioning, and then brand so brand isn't been around for a long time, it sounds like. It it seems like it's more of a newer concept.

Howard Lim5:50Exactly. It became popular, like, you could say around was around 2010 is where, like, around where '28, 2010, we were starting to hit, like, Forbes Magazine, Time Magazine, Money Magazine. It's all about brand. You know? And, actually, that was coinciding with Apple because Steve Jobs was a natural brander. But branding is actually even further than that, quite honestly, what I call what it we what I call authentic branding, which is branding in a current modern day. It's more than just design, advertising. Now we're including in the course is the parts to marketing and social media. And so we're looking at now where it takes on a deeper and wider scope. And a lot of it has to do now, quite honestly, with what I call authentic branding, what is the back end story of a business, the authenticity of a business. So it's evolved to more, you could say, what I call the DNA to building a strong brand. It involved more ingredients than just how it was before. Why is that important? Because it's all about differentiating from your competitors, and you have to be very clear how you're differentiating. So these ingredients create that DNA of what's gonna make you different, look different, sound different, and feel different.

Kayvon Kay7:10So as you walk in and you've seen and and you're working with a lot of these companies, you said you've a lot of them get it wrong. Where where are they getting it wrong? From where where like, from them? Is it the messaging? Is the positioning? Is it just understanding you said that equilibrium, the whole thing coming together? I feel equilibrium comes from other things connecting so that you get this holistic brand approach that people can What you're saying is also being perceived of what you're of what you want it to be versus what you think it is.

Howard Lim7:42Exactly. So a big part of what people miss is they think that branding is the same as marketing when they're totally two different animals. Branding is about the long term. What is your overall position of who you are, what makes you unique, and why this matters? Marketing is about the tactical side of sending that message out. Mhmm. Tactically meaning through the different channels. Right? So that's the first mistake people make. They confuse the two and they collapse the two of being the same. We're totally are two completely different paradigms. The second thing is that even if you even if you hire a branding person, there's three parts to branding. There's those who come up with a strategy. K? There's they're called strategic a lot of times, they're referred to strict strategic planners or strategic brand designers. What they're doing is really coming up with a strategy. K? Now the second component to this is building the identity, and this is where most people will only go so far because branding and building the identity is an understanding of all medias because you wanna create cohesiveness between your radio spots, TV spots, your social media, your website, your print, your product design, your vehicle wraps, your building. So the only way you could build things effectively to understand each of those different principle because they're all different. What I see a lot of times is people, brand designers, are actually designing for, let's say, a newspaper ad for, like, a website or a website they think is a catalog. And so what they're doing is they're missing the opportunity to truly engage that person based on that media of how to really engage your emotions. K? Okay. Or to use the wrong, quote, unquote, principles when it comes to the layout. So I've seen a lot of people, like, for example, to design something like a a package design, but it is they design a package design, like, it's an ad. And so they don't those two don't translate when it goes to media to media. So that's where brand identity what I call brand identity, we become a a brand designer. That's where a brand designer is different than a graphic designer. A brand designer is understand has it understand of we're talking decades of understanding these different medias and which media to use and actually how to design for those core principles so you're most effective.

Kayvon Kay10:10When you're using those the medias. But I think it's interesting because even even we talked started talking about the medias, which I would say is getting closer to the marketing probably side of this equation. There's something before this which is really the core, the truth, which is you said your identity. What is the identity that you want? So where it's interesting because that alone goes, okay, well, know my identity. I can go, you know, figure that out, but it's not actually the case because you can think you know what your identity is or you can think you want the I would say your audience to want to know what your identity is, but there's a nuance here that nobody talks about. There's there's the there's the there's an expertise that happens in between that of actually really understanding what your identity is and how to actually land so that your your potential customers, clients, whatever it might be, actually resonate and wanna be part of that brand. Like, I mean, as you said, Steve Jobs was I mean, yes, he was probably one of the top guys if you think about what he did with Apple. Right? Like, what was Apple? What does even Apple mean? Right? But when you think about it, you hear it, you know exactly what it is. Simplistic.

Howard Lim11:18You're you're exactly right. So I always say it's about asking the right quality questions to get the quality answers. Most most people try to do is almost like they try to operate on themselves without having the expertise on the outside of what's really gonna be able to scale and grow that company. So they're they're doing the same thing year after year. They may get their team together, their board together. We're not having an extra come on the outside to ask the right questions. Right? It's kinda like, you know, there's old saying, you know, you can't see the forest through the trees. Right? Yeah. It's like they they they're only taking one perspective. Their perspective, what they need is the outside perspective of understanding actually how to ask the right question to get the right answers that are so sustainable. Those questions, those answers are so sustainable. They become the foundation, the back bone of that business slash brand.

Kayvon Kay12:07How do we so then how do you ask those right questions? How does a business ask those right? Is that market research? I'm thinking of branding research, I guess you would call it, but how do you how do we ask the right questions and know we're getting the right answers?

Howard Lim12:19We came up with a proprietary process of what those questions should be.

Kayvon Kay12:24Okay.

Howard Lim12:26So another one just to give you an idea. Okay? If you had to go to jail for a year, what values would you find so inherent that you would say, would need to go to jail because these reasons? You know, there's like that would be a question like, what what do you feel like are your like, for example, when it comes to brand, there's usually five values. Right? Those values are, like, you know, almost like people treat them like, what's your personality? No. That's not that's not a strong value. A strong value is what's gonna actually dictate the culture. What's gonna be so inherent in a culture that your your business would cease to exist? Like, for example, Steve Jobs was a natural brander. His is all about quality. When a board member thought he was crazy charging that amount of money for a consumer to purchase, they thought there's they they were looking at a profit. They weren't looking at the brand of what's gonna supersede all other brands and stand at stand above it all based on quality. Yeah. Okay? So he didn't want to create any corners to produce the best product. He understood it's gonna take more money, more time, but you know what? So they keep them ahead. And not only that, but give the consumer what they ultimately want. So that's a value. A very strong value was that he wanna make it a user friendly operating system or, I should say, a user friendly computer in general. And so that meant that he had to do more programming to make sure that the interface, the GUI interface, everything about it was in create the best experience so it wasn't clunky like a PC where it was inviting and allowed people to get more creative. He was not gonna bend on that value Mhmm. Given it been that, like not to say he would do this or not, but the point being is, like, you know, would it mean, like, a prison for a year that you felt so strongly about those values, right, as a core? So that's what I mean like a a as as a question, but to pose a question in a way that actually sinks so deep, it becomes part of foundation, it's unshakable.

Kayvon Kay14:23See, I I like when you said unshakable, but it's interesting because as as you say that, from just my experience that I've seen, even in that one question, you can get it wrong. Like, it doesn't matter. Like, for me, it's like it doesn't matter what I think, you know, what I'm willing to go to jail for. It it matters what my clients are willing to go to jail for. Like, what they're gonna perceive that I'm willing to go to jail for. Because I could say, hey, I want, you know, x, but x doesn't land with my y client. So I can sit there forever, right, thinking, and I'm going to hold and hold and hold, but at some point there's like a test that has to happen. And that's what I never understood is how do you You can't test without brand. How do you get that in between so that you actually have something that could be in alignment to go to the market? Because I'm sure when you go to market, it changes.

Howard Lim15:17Well, here's what's this is what's interesting. So there are certain core principles that will always remain true to the founder, to the CEO, the founder, you could say. Right? There's two parts of this. There's what's true to that founder, and then what's gonna resonate to the consumer and then building that bridge. Building that bridge is coming up with a statement that resonates with both.

Kayvon Kay15:46Yeah. Yeah. I I love it. I so then that's the nuance, right, is is is the bridge, is how do you build the bridge between what the founder truly believes, what he's willing to die for, and then the bridge to what the consumer is willing to perceive or go, I'm in or I'm out. Exactly. Now here's the killer part.

Howard Lim16:07Is that you can't please all the people all the time, but the great thing about it is that if you're really clear based on your love, your passion, your heart, you're gonna build others that wanna resonate with that. You just need to that's where then once you forget that part, that's where then marketing comes in place, right? Because now you're marketing it out there and say, here's here's who we are. Here's how we are available to you. This is how you can resonate with us, right? So that's where marketing comes in. But you gotta get these other components straight and figure it out first before you could actually market. So yeah. So it's building your own tribe, what I call a tribe, and so you create a culture and a tribe that's so strong. I remember when Apple I was one of those guys that stood in line for eight hours getting the first iPhone because that's my loyalty, and that's the ultimate. So there's two parts to this when it comes to a strong brand. It's building loyalty and building trust. The more that you're consistent to what your values are and your philosophy is, for example, the more consistent you are, the faster you're gonna be recognizable as what I call instant recall in the mind and heart of your customer. It's when you actually bend those, that's where the trust goes down, and you start to break that trust. That's where the brand can deteriorate literally overnight after all years of building up. Boom.

Kayvon Kay17:30And that could be what? The the product you're selling, the messenger, the color, like, is that a combination of all of that where you can start losing the trust?

Howard Lim17:40Exactly. It's a combination of all, like so I need to get a little abstract, but this will make sense. So there's there's kinda like the universe that you're building, which I call the context. So there's certain components that make up that context, your philosophy, your vision, and your values, and your overall core message. You're not telling, you know, you're not telling specifics, but you're actually like it's almost like, you know, quite honestly, it's like, you know, the the Declaration of Independence. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. It builds the context of this country. Right? Then you fill it with the content. K? The content, when it comes to product, could be like a series of different products or a different line of products, but they all follow a certain principle based on a context, which is a philosophy. So going back to, like, Steve Jobs philosophy, he wanted a hazard or user friendly interface, but he also wanted he also believed and he was a designer as well. He also believed in minimalist design. Most companies don't even know why you're copying an iPhone. It's the most simplest form you could design for a phone. You can't get any simpler than this. Right? Yeah. So you got Samsung, all these other companies are copying it. Right? They don't even know why they're copying it. But the point being is that Steve Jobs, with all his products, wanna bear it down to the simplest approach, which is Japanese design influenced by the Japanese, which is minimalist design. Everything they design is based on that philosophy for consistency and also for recognition. You could always identify a Apple Mac product because it has a certain look and feel to it.

Kayvon Kay19:17Absolutely. I mean, even their stores, they have a look feel. You know when you're you're in one. Right?

Howard Lim19:22Exactly.

Kayvon Kay19:23So it was interesting because as you were talking, was thinking, so what comes first? The product or the brand? And it seems like the brand really dictates the product.

Howard Lim19:33Yeah. So a lot of times what happens is that right now, what we do a lot majority of the time, 80% of my business is really redesigning companies. They have the content, like I say, a product, but it isn't positioned properly to their target market because, first of all, they haven't defined themselves for far enough. And second of all, they haven't they haven't defined their customer. Not only that have they not defined their customer from the standpoint of demographic and psychographs, but they also have subcategory, subsegments. Okay? It gets kinda complex, but you got four generations now, the buying powers. You got the baby boomers. You got the x. You got the millennials, which is y, and then you got the z's. Anyways, the point being is they all think differently. That comes to the psychographics. Are you designed based on one psychographic, or are you designed for two psychographics, or are you designed for three? Should you be designing one product for one psychographic and then create that same product and redesign for a second a second group of psychographics? And so I say that nowadays, branding be goes beyond the demographics because we're living in the global market now. It has to do with more generations in their psychographics, for example.

Kayvon Kay20:44It's interesting because now we're getting into the deeper, like, so high as you say that, I'm thinking, okay. So how do you do that if you if if you have a product, let's just say, or a business, they they want to speak to all four demographics. It's very easy if you know what your target market avatar, whatever the name you want to use it, but like it's very niche, you could speak to them. But if you want to be a household name or a product that let's just say works for all those different generations, how do you how do you do that? Like, how do you do that under one umbrella?

Howard Lim21:18So a lot of times what we'll do is we'll create sub brands if we find like, well, first is taking the data. This is where now marketing and sales comes into place. We'll look at the data from the sales and marketing to find out, well, who's your, quote, unquote, who's your number one clientele from the standpoint of the demographic and psychographics? Right? And then let's get it from marketing, let's get it from sales, and then look at the data, and then start to look at, well, is it even worth to consider, you know, y or z generation because there's maybe 2%. Right? And they're like, oh, we should design for all. Right? And then we're like, well, maybe we should scale out to a specific one, a a specific demographic, psychographic, excuse me, psychographic because that's your biggest buying buyers are right there. Let's say they're 80%. So then it gives us an idea. Well, this is designed for that market specifically. There's there's also looking at too another set of variables that we look at. Are we gonna be price driven? Are you gonna be value quality driven? K? What most companies that we work with, nearly almost every company that we work with, we tell them to be value driven because that will set us apart than price driven. When price driven, you're beaten up on pricing, especially when it comes to b two b. Okay? They go, well, how can we get it where, you know, we're more than just we're price driven, more than just price driven? I said, because you gotta create a brand. We never go through website. You're a totally commodity. Everything you start talking about is about the about the features about your price that anyone else can say, but it's not talking about the benefits. It's not talking about the brand from an emotional standpoint, how people could benefit from that quote, unquote product even if it's a b to b.

Kayvon Kay23:02So as you're saying that, I'm thinking that comes to that question I kind of asked, but we didn't really go deep into it is so when you what are some of the common mistakes or the common things that you come into businesses and you see right away? I know you said the first one was, like, the equilibrium is not there. If But we were to go deeper, what are some other things that you you can just see and you're like, yep. That's a game changer. Like, the things that really make the the difference. So

Howard Lim23:25a lot of times I start them with the a one hour intake where I'm reviewing all the material, like, everything they've produced to represent their brand or website, social media, if it's a product design or product design, everything. And what I first thing I know is is they're they look like they look like civil, like that old classic movie, like a bunch of personalities. Yeah. Yeah. So there's different looks and feels, different font, different colors, and different tone as far as a copy. I'm reading a copy on social media. It doesn't relate to the actual brochure. This brochure does not relate to the website. So it looks like ten, fifteen different companies. Guess what? You're now positioned in a way that you never get noticed. Because a company that looks like 50 different companies versus, like, one company like Apple, guess what? The one company that's gonna get noticed is the one company that actually is very clear who they are, what they stand for, and has a clear identity. So first thing I look at is the identity and understanding that a lot of times, well, every time I ever work with a company where they're disjointed and there's no alignment. There's no consistency. It's no unification about and not even if there's a unification. I'd say they are using the same colors, same fonts. There's no unification about still of who they are

Kayvon Kay24:41as an overall position. And would you say not even just who they are, but who they actually want to target?

Howard Lim24:48Very good. Exactly. So a lot of clients, they go, well, we're talking, you know, let's say x, y and z. We're talking we're we're targeting targeting z, but when I look at how they're targeting, it's really to x. And then they're trying to figure out why they're not getting their ideal customer.

Kayvon Kay25:06Well, yeah. I guess I I know when I've walked in cost, like, you know, as you as we build sales teams, we need to make sure, obviously, marketing and brand is on par or just sales becomes way harder. And one one of the things I've realized is a lot of these a lot of businesses that I've worked with, like, they don't they think they know, but they haven't really done the work on just I'm talking about their actual ideal target, like their their other you know, some people call it their avatar, IPC, whatever, ICP, whatever it might be. But I feel like in order to get your ICP, you there's one even step before that, which is what I'm thinking I'm hearing you say is like that brand, which is before the brand, which is first, who are we? So what is this company and what does this company want to represent? Number one. Like, we don't really even on and it's not, hey, I want to make business better. Like, it's not like that's it's there there's a nuance in that right there. My question always goes, if you get that wrong, everything down the chain is off. Everything is off. A millimeter, a millimeter, millimeter. And this is how then you get these businesses. You come in, they're fragmented. Nobody knows what's going on. So the the the challenge is, right, how do you get to that right message right in the beginning? This is what we represent because it's based off of obviously the founder or whatever the founding principle is. How do we get the founding principle that we know is actually gonna land and is gonna speak to our target market before we even know the target market? So to me, it there's a there's a nuance here I'm trying to figure out, and I don't know if you're not saying it because it might be giving away the kitchen sink, but we can look at it all in silos. I tell people all the time, if you don't even know who your target market is and you don't know the message and you haven't figured out the right message to the right audience or the right offer, that's what I always say, stop immediately. You're wasting money. You're wasting time. You're wasting energy. You don't have a sales problem. You got a marketing, and in this case, a branding problem.

Howard Lim27:06K. So the way that we do it, we go through our SIEM system, and it stands for strategy implementation and management. So the first part is strategy. We do a one day, a two day, and a three day. Okay? So if you work on a one day, two day, three day, the core central is getting to that position exactly what we're talking about. Like, who are you? What do you do? What makes you unique? The uniqueness is what's super critical because if you're just saying, hey. We sell, you know, this widget, you're right. That just becomes a commodity. You have to look at it from the standpoint, what are you doing uniquely that is unique from everybody else that actually adds more value to your ideal customer? And believe it or not, like, again, when I work with companies, you know, usually it's re repositioning them, rebuilding them, repositioning them, redesigning them. And what I find is that they have all the gems. They're just all buried. Mhmm. They just didn't been asked the been they haven't been asked the right questions to unlock those critic, quote, unquote, hidden gems. Windows got are brought to the surface when I look at all the data points. They were like, okay. Now we can make this into a brand. So now we got so they they offer all the content, and then what I'm doing is looking at, well, let's create now the dots, and now let's connect the dots. Okay? That's a part they will don't don't never get and understand. That comes back to being an expert in the space of branding and positioning. But the point being is you're right. They have all the answers. They're just been buried over the years and not been asked the right questions, and that's when I get into the strategy to figure out their positioning

Kayvon Kay28:46and even goes further in positioning, but also gets into the finances as well. Okay. I was gonna ask Dives because I wanted to make sure people because I I think I understand this, but I wanna make sure people listening here are not confusing what you're saying to like a business plan versus a brand strategy or a brand document. Like for me, I have I have couple businesses and that's the like, where's the brand doc? Like, the brand doc tells me, right, what the message is, what the fonts are, what the colors are, how to use those colors, when to not use those color. Like, there's like so it there there's this common ground that any anyone knows and sees, you know, it's one thing. Funnels, emails, we all speak in a certain language. But even then, that this you'll see me always go here because I see it, and I can't get my my my finger on the pulse. Even having that, you can still do it wrong. Like, it's still can the whole thing could be wrong. So what you and I love what you said. It's not so much what you like. It's about what the customer perceives. Right. Exactly. Back there. So you go in and you do these strategy. This is one of your now we're talking more about you specifically. You have a certain way of doing a strategy, which is basically understanding the business, the core, seeing underneath the hood where most people are not looking, and then be able to ask or I'm gonna say extract the right information through the questions and through this sim system, I like that, to be able to understand, okay, wait a minute. We have an idea of, like, here's who we are, here's what we represent or what we stand for, Here's where we're going. Now we start making a message happening.

Howard Lim30:21Yeah. Exactly. So with the sim system by the way, what you're describing, which a lot of people get these two confused quite a bit too, is a style guide and a brand manual. Yeah. So I've seen now it's become very popular where I see a lot of designers are creating style guides, like what fonts to use, what colors to use, which is great. Don't get me wrong. That's great. But it's still on theory. What they're missing is the core content, what's our message, what's our philosophy, which comes from what what I started create into creating new category, which is brand manuals that are deeper. So, therefore, the culture, not just designers can understand this in marketing, but the culture at whole. So the more you have everyone working in a sense and going the right direction, right, And that means all the stakeholders, literally. So a lot of people will design style guides for the creatives, but what about the culture? What about the the actual VP? What about the actual partners? So manuals, way we do it, we build brand manuals where actually it allows everyone to participate into the brand and see the value.

Kayvon Kay31:35And so you'll do this with when you do these strategies, you'll do this with the whole business, like all the departments kind of in one.

Howard Lim31:43Yeah. Exactly. So when I do that's a three day strategy session. You're right, though. What I'll do is in these strategy sessions, a big the three day strategy session, even a two day strategy session, what I'll do is I'll look at their business model, look at their brand, but I'll go beyond most biz branding companies only work at the brand level. Right? But I like working I the reason why I start with the business first, because a business is gonna change how the brand should be shaped.

Kayvon Kay32:09Say that again?

Howard Lim32:12The reason why I like to start with the the business, the business model specifically first is because a lot of times what I'll do is I'll look at the business model, and they'll have, let's say, 10 components that will actually, you know, quote, unquote, create revenue. And I'll say and I'll because I work in every single space, I'm, like, combining my head what might be a space I haven't thought of that's used in medical, but, actually, we're working in finances that has been effective in medical and could be adapted to finances to actually get the company out there even further when it comes to more revenue. So what I'm doing is I'm looking at dots that have not been created Mhmm. And create a bigger and stronger, quote, unquote, business engine. So, therefore, then that's gonna change the way the brand identity is gonna be shaped. In other words, if it was only shaped from what the business started with and what it may currently do, it might be that then it's half baked. In other words, it might even be the name. They outgrown a name, which we had to change a lot of names as well, but the name itself could only be limited by their business model that they currently have. When we change some of these components, the name itself can change. Like, w s you know, like, let's say, all these containers. They are much more than containers. Containers, when I worked with them, was only a quarter of what they did. They were leaving three quarters of it buried, and everyone thought they only did containers when they looked at the name or heard the name. I said, no. We guys we had just changed to Al Des, which we end up doing and getting, by the way. But the point being is that that changed my whole thinking about what kind of brand identity we wanna create starting a lot a lot of times with a name and a mark. So why I like to do and work with the, quote, unquote, business model? Because the business model now, we could build something bigger and stronger, you could say, and then reflect the identity on that. So, therefore, the company looks literally more valuable than it ever did before, and it could grow into their brand rather than outgrow it. Oh, wow.

Kayvon Kay34:10I okay. So where just so people have some context of that, what brands can people that you can put your pinpoint on that have outgrown? Because I love something you can grow into verse outgrow. What companies have you seen outgrow their brand?

Howard Lim34:28Sure. Twentieth Century Fox.

Kayvon Kay34:31Okay.

Howard Lim34:32We're in twenty first century. That's funny. Yeah. So a lot a lot of names, literally, I see where they a lot of companies will run into trouble, and rad have run into trouble. K? Like, thirty one flavors, basket, robins. Right? And that is, you know, called basket and robins. Right? The b r. They had a and they did something clever with it, you know, adding a three one in there. There's tons of companies where they were running in trouble, where they were outgrowing the name and their image. Okay? Their full identity, the look and the feel. So the name is part of it, then there's a look of it. You know? That's why if I showed you Apple has changed your identity to where they have it where it's super clean now, I think it was, like, five times before they got it right. But, anyways, a lot of companies will outgrow literally their mark first. Okay? The the the mark, what people call logos, I call it a mark if it's done right where it'll last forever. A logo is like anybody could create, like, someone's brother, but it misses the science into it. Like, can it be reduced the size of a dime to bill? Can that can that mark be used to a billboard? Can it work in black and white? Can it work for embroideries? It doesn't take the science. Logos do not take science and business into its approach. It's like Mhmm. What looks good, but doesn't make sense from a standpoint, how can it shrink down to, let's say, a thumbnail drawing, you know, let's say, like an app. So a lot of logos, how they have outgrown, a lot of companies have grown, is that now I'm gonna say they started creating apps where it can't even reduce the size of the thumbnail.

Kayvon Kay36:06I I hear that. I like that. And then I was gonna say, and then if you start grab if you start getting attention on a brand, it's a lot harder to change the brand once it's moving versus the beginning of it.

Howard Lim36:19Yeah. It is, but there's always times to change the brand when you're actually not creating a maximum value is what I call the full potential of the brand, maximum potential. So a lot of companies that draw, like, at 15% at most, most companies will reach maybe 15%. And they're like, well, why should we change the brand when we lose all of our followers? And I say, well, the reason is because if you did change the brand, you're gaining about 10 x or maybe a 100 x, and we actually measure to 2,000 x. So that's what your that's the that's what your the the the the hidden cost is is what is it that you're actually missing out on. Or who you're not speaking to or connecting with.

Kayvon Kay37:00And you might have to take that step back to take 10 steps forward, but is a business willing to do that? So I know we talked about before the show, you're saying you're you're very different than other branding. Like, you you have a unique, I guess, it's your SIEM system. What mistakes do you see traditional branding, let's just say, you know, agencies making versus you? And where can people really connect with you and learn more about how your system, the SIEM system is different?

Howard Lim37:29So I just have a potential client that came to me, and she goes she saw me speak because I'm also a speaker for the last thirty five years. The point being is I was speaking at this event, and she goes, oh my goodness. You spoke everything of what's not working about my brand. And she says, we've been working with two branding companies. We fired both of them, and they did not even come close to what you're speaking on stage. And I said, well, let me take a look at what they've done. And they she had literally a style guy, and it was all conceptual, but nothing was executed, which is 9% of the work. I said, well, they gave you the they gave you this this style guy, but why didn't they execute it? He said, well, they said it was up to us. I said, what do you say? That's so difficult. They'll get they'll be the client will be given a style guide and then leave it to the client to execute. The client doesn't know how to execute. It's a whole different language. And the reason why they do that, by the way, because the client the company the brand companies that do that, they don't know how to execute. Like, remember I said execution is 90% of it is understanding all the different medias. You have to understand color theory. RGB has color. You have to understand the difference between that and CMYK and Pantone colors. That's like years of accumulation of understanding how that works through practical means by actually going on the press or being on air and understanding and seeing the colors themselves. That's just color by itself. So that's the reason that's the biggest mistake I see companies say that they received a style guide, but they didn't have any execution to that style guide, And then he paid, like, you know, 30 or $40 for that. And so you got pay 30 or $40 without any execution, and you're back to the drawing board.

Kayvon Kay39:10Yeah. So I guess what the key is, it's not just getting a style guide. It's being able to and I and I'm assuming that's what you and your agency does is, hey, we're gonna first find the brand. We're gonna find the message. We're going to create the look, the the style guide. Let's call it the style guide. Most important, I'm gonna call it the the nucleus, the the core of what we represent, and then we're gonna be able to show that, and then you're gonna execute that. So is that, again, building the plant, like, you know, the websites and building the online presence and the emails and all that stuff that then the company can start using and understanding?

Howard Lim39:48Actually, so I call them a master blueprint. There's positioning blueprint. There's a two day essential, and then there's a master blueprint. They're all blueprints. Right? You're right. It's like a blueprint to a city. You gotta start off the blues blueprint before you start building. Right? So you're right. The strategy is all about the blueprint, and the I is for implementation, which is 90% of the work now, is and they're all equal in components, you could say. But when it comes to executing, that's where the heart of it comes in That's the management. Yeah. So you actually see it coming to life. And then now it's now building it, so there's an architecture to it. I call myself a business brand architect. So everything has a similar look and feel and tone to it. The copy is written away of what we uncovered in the strategy session. The colors relate to our position and differentiate from the competition. So there's a lot of research r and d when it comes to the implementation. The m's, by the way, stands for management. So a lot of my my a lot of my clients, they wanna actually grow as a franchise. They say they wanna go IPO, which several have gone IPO. And a lot of them, let's say, they wanna go and start building new offices. Okay? So they have one office. They wanna build multiple offices around The US and eventually get to around the world. So that's where the management comes in place is for consistency. Kinda like think of it like this way, like McDonald's. Why is McDonald's consistent? Because people trust McDonald's if they go to Hong Kong and they go to LA, then we get the same flavor, and that's built in trust. So the whole idea behind branding besides differentiation is building so much trust you do that loyalty.

Kayvon Kay41:23Yep. Yeah. Well, you get the loyalty, I say, and the relationship. And just Relationship and consistency of of those relationships. And I would say that's where you see a lot of businesses go wrong is just not having consistency.

Howard Lim41:35Right. Right. Exactly. Exactly. They don't have that consistency. So the consistency me and by the way, it doesn't take much. I have a client right now I'm working with, and they're using this internal designer. And the first thing they start doing is they start to not go by our brand manual, start doing their own thing. I say, you're killing the brand overnight because that looks like a totally different company. Yeah. So, you know, graphic designers wanna get creative, but a lot of times, they get overly designed. They overdesign to a point that actually works and backfires.

Kayvon Kay42:08Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. Again, Steve Jobs, keep it simple. Right? Like, it's Keep it simple. It's keep and that's the whole thing here. On brand. Gotta keep it on brand. Exactly. It's a hard one because people evolve, people change, businesses change, but you can't the brand can't. Like, the brand's gotta stay, the brand. I mean, if you think about I think about companies who say brand, big brands, like a Lulu represents something like Lululemon is a brand. Right. Like their clothes are crap, but people still like they they sell $80, $200 t shirts because people just want the Lululemon brand. Right? And obviously, we talk about the luxury brands and all that, lifestyle brands, and they the game is branding. I see that. Like, marketing is one thing, but you you land the brand. People are going to buy just to feel part of what the brand represents. Nice. Right? We like, what's the brand? Right? Yeah.

Howard Lim43:02You're exactly right. And then people are proud to even show off that brand, whether it's car, whether it's clothing, whether it's going to that restaurant, whether it's going to that destination location, whether it's that hotel, it's like they feel a sense of an extension of who they are. The extension of who they are.

Kayvon Kay43:18I love it. The the brand needs to be an extension of who they are. So the question is, if you're listening here, is your business, does your business have a brand and are your clients feeling that they are the extension of who they are or I'm gonna add who they wanna become?

Howard Lim43:34Oh, I like that. That's great. And you're right. One of the biggest part for branding in my it's not in my opinion. It's what I've seen as a result is aspirational design aspirational design. Okay? So I remember when we were designing when we were rebranding WSS, and the the the founder was like, well, we don't wanna chase away our local customers. I said, this is what's gonna happen. You're gonna be an inspiration and aspiration for them because they're gonna feel like they've been listened to, and now they're gonna have more pride shopping at your retails Mhmm. Places. And it and it worked. The company sold for $750,000,000 Wow. To Foot Locker. Wow. Okay. So yeah.

Kayvon Kay44:18So No joke. Yeah.

Howard Lim44:20So they're happy. But they had we had to I had to be really rigorous with their team because they had an in house design advertising team, and I we we work on a master look and feel, and I had to be really disciplined with them to stick with our system. Otherwise, it will It breaks. Yep. You know? Yeah. It would it would it would not be good. So where can, people,

Kayvon Kay44:43find you? They gotta wanna work on their brand. They got a business. They wanna get a hell like, hold of you. Where can they go?

Howard Lim44:49Well, what I offer, though, for those who are really, really serious is a is an hour call. I usually charge $2,500. It's $500, and it's really an assessment on your brand. And, you know, if they're interested, the easiest way is to email me, and I can email that link, and there's a whole process to this. I want them to send me everything they have about their company, you know, besides their website or social media, and then I start off with a dialogue, like a ten, fifteen minute dialogue, understanding the person, the client, the business, and understanding what they're trying to achieve, but also understanding their obstacles. And then I start to go through and assess, quote, unquote, their body of work that's representing their brand, and I start to pinpoint. We use Zoom, and I start to pinpoint exactly what they could change immediately to start to improve their positioning and their value. So the what what I do is ask people to email me at howard@howcreative.com. Howard at how creative.

Kayvon Kay45:53Well, we're gonna make sure that that's in the show notes as well. So if you're a business owner, you even you're looking to whether recreate, start, and or you're having some issues, I'm gonna say, your marketing and sales, chances are it's probably a brand issue. So Howard's your guy for sure. I've seen the stuff you've worked with, and I know we we've talked about doing something ourselves. So I can't wait to see what happens, and I love what you're doing. I think it's very important for businesses to understand the nuance and you have it. So we'll leave it there. Howard, thank you so much for being with us. Yeah. Thank you for allowing me and being on your show. I really enjoyed the conversation.